19:38 pm
Hey fam! We're about to start the #OWS Spokescouncil, at 86th/Amsterdam tonight. Follow here, @LibertySqGA2, @LibertySqGA3, @LibertySqGA4.
19:43 pm
Laura is introducing herself -- she's one of our co-facilitators tonight, and has done a lot w/ the Library. #nycga #ows
19:44 pm
.@shawncarrie is our other facilitator. Stefan and @emst are timekeeper and stack taker, respectively! Woohoo! #nycga #ows
19:44 pm
Shawn: "When we enter the space, we're committed to mutual respect, and mutual aid and anti-oppression. Let's keep in mind there are.."
19:44 pm
Cont'd: "…forms of oppression we don't really see, because oppression is invisible, and if you step back you might learn something about..."
19:45 pm
Cont'd: "…oppression you didn't see before, if you take the opportunity to step back before speaking. One of the most disrespectful things..
19:45 pm
Cont'd: "..you can do to someone is deny them the right to speak, & by interrupting them, you just a little bit deny them the…" #nycsc #OWS
19:45 pm
Cont'd: "…right to speak. It's not an evil thing; we've all done it before." But we should listen, then respond. #nycsc #ows
19:46 pm
Laura notes that "this may be a bit of an interesting Spokescouncil" because Saturday's GA froze the budget. "We've been made.." #nycsc #ows
19:46 pm
Cont'd: "…aware that there's some disagreement on how this plays out, and so we'll make some space here to address it." #nycsc #ows
19:46 pm
Cont'd: "We'll go into our groups -- break out for 3 minutes -- then we'll open, have a 10 minute discussion, take stack to address this."
19:47 pm
Shawn: "It's just an opportunity to speak with your groups before we talk." Jason, whose proposal it is, recaps the proposal… #nycsc #ows
19:47 pm
Jason: "I don't have the full text, but the #OWS budget is frozen until we have a Financial assembly sometime next week. It exempts…"#nycsc
19:48 pm
Cont;d: "…food and housing, and proposals relating to metro cards are able to be heard." Also, pre-approved budget items. #nycsc #ows
19:48 pm
Jason explains a meeting will happen tomorrow at 60 Wall to set up the financial assembly, which can consense to unfreeze the $. #nycsc #ows
19:48 pm
OK, now working groups will discuss the question of how we deal with the proposal that froze the funds. What's unclear is… #nycsc #ows
19:49 pm
Cont'd: …whether this restriction, obviously meant to be movement-wide, applies to Spokescouncil. This is a conflict between the GA...
19:49 pm
Cont'd: …and the empowerment of spokescouncil, on a structural (not personal) level. Where we go with this as a spokescouncil will… #nycsc
19:50 pm
Cont'd: …have repercussions, regardless of whether we decide we need to follow the GA's decision or ignore it and take it head on. #nycsc
19:53 pm
19:55 pm
OK, now stacking up comments. First @dap: "We feel that GA doesn't have authority over Spokes, so it can't make this decision." #nycsc #ows
19:56 pm
Cont'd: "The only thing it says that the GA can do is dissolve Spokescouncil, which must be announced a week in advance." #nycsc #ows
19:56 pm
Next, @OWSFacilitation: Sully: "We want to acknowledge there are 2 problems here. The specific question is, what to do w/ regard to freeze..
19:56 pm
Cont'd: "…the overarching question is uncertainty as to the relative powers of these two bodies. Regarding the overarching problem…"
19:57 pm
Cont'd: "…we have pretty serious reservations in our group about whether the GA can restrict the powers of the Spokescouncil. We also..."
19:57 pm
Cont'd: "…are respectful of the concerns of those who think it does. We need to be careful. Regarding immediate situation, we don't want…"
19:57 pm
Cont'd: "…the Spokescouncil to wage war with the GA, so we think it should follow through and cooperate w/ the formation of this…" #nycsc
19:58 pm
Cont'd: "…financial assembly, & use it as an opportunity for the SC to carry out its original charge of doing budgeting in a concrete way."
19:58 pm
Next, Picture the Homeless. "I have two things, mainly questions: I wanted to ask if there's a list of occupiers who were arrested, and..."
19:59 pm
Cont'd: "…how, if not, we go about getting that, so we don't have just numbers, but also the names of ppl that were arrested..."
19:59 pm
Cont'd: "…and participating in the events or protest. And the next thing is, do we have an education program so as to inform members…"
19:59 pm
Cont'd: "…who have been arrested to make them aware of the various terms that are used…" Library PoPs (@HelloFrances!); not about proposal.
20:00 pm
Next: "I was just thinking about hearing that $50k has been spent and we have nothing to show for it. We need the freeze, and we need..."
20:00 pm
Cont'd: "…to manage it. Because that's ridiculous. $50k/week, that's $100k/a month. And I've never seen any of it." #nycsc #ows
20:01 pm
DA: "The $ is GA's money; if the GA is what froze it, doesn't matter who else is trying to get it -- it's frozen. SC doesn't have access."
20:01 pm
Cont'd: "But that's what we're kind of talking about -- whether the SC has access to that still. That wasn't made clear in the beginning."
20:01 pm
.@shawncarrie: "Let's try to keep in mind right now that the people talking are just Spokes." Sage and Nan both trying to interrupt. #nycsc
20:02 pm
Next, Press. "Hi, everybody. I made the proposal; I'm the only one here from my working group. But the reason I brought this proposal is.."
20:02 pm
Cont'd: "…I wanted us all to slow down, and look at ourselves, and I don't think we've done that in the entire process of this movement.."
20:02 pm
Cont'd: "…to slow down, look at the things we've done," look at the bigger picture. "This also really exposes the need to look at…" #nycsc
20:03 pm
Cont'd: "…our decision-making process, and maybe this is something we need to slow down, analyze it ourselves, and before taking the next.."
20:03 pm
Cont'D: "…step, look at where we've gone and then figure out how to go forward." OWS Works: "We strongly feel the general fund is.." #nycsc
20:03 pm
Cont'd: "…what provides resources to the whole movement, and there's a very good case to be made that the GA has overarching control."#nycsc
20:04 pm
Cont'd: "That said, there's a good case to be made on both sides." Let's respect that a big part of our movement went to GA and said…
20:04 pm
Cont'd: …"Let's step back." Notes that GA made allowance for the stuff Spokes is supposed to do, but "please, let's come together.."#nycsc
20:04 pm
Cont'd: "…as people, take a step back and think about budgeting so we don't spend $50k a week." #nycsc #ows
20:05 pm
Next: "I agree, the $50k/week is too much, and this gives us a chance to shake things down and look at how we operate collectively…" #nycsc
20:05 pm
Cont;d: "Maybe we do a little stop, take a look around at how we work together." Next: "I'm learning a lot about this, but… correct me.."
20:05 pm
Cont'd: "…if I'm wrong, but anyone can go to GA and participate. But SC is specifically for working groups and the people in the movement.."
20:06 pm
Cont'd: "…itself, and we're all movement-oriented. This is movement-driven stuff. So I don't understand why a decision made in public.."
20:06 pm
Cont'd: "…at GAs should affect spokescouncil." But does agree this needs to be talked about and "the bleeding has to stop." #nycsc #ows
20:07 pm
SWR: "GA authorized Spokes to exist; can take it away as well." Asks that what's written about it be read out loud so there's no confusion.
20:12 pm
Next, Comfort. "I'm w/ the freeze; I like the freeze." Nan starts yelling. Folks who feel strongly about the GA's ownership of the fund...
20:12 pm
Cont'd: …seem to be having trouble making space for this conversation to even happen here. #nycsc #ows
20:15 pm
About 10 people formed a human wall and are encircling Nan so she can't interfere with the meeting. She'd been hollering nonstop. #nycsc
20:18 pm
This is a new development for #OWS; folks taking non-violent direct action to deal with disruption. #nycsc #ows http://t.co/j3NDXcUW
20:19 pm
@allisonkilkenny Yeah basically. It's calmed her down, but we also can't really continue until she leaves or ppl sit. #nycsc #ows
20:19 pm
Stairs: "I'm feeling that this assembly isn't ready to move forward w/ Spokescouncil. I'd like to facilitate…" #nycsc #ows
20:20 pm
Cont'd: "…but I'm not sure we're ready to do that, and it's a group activity." Notes it's hard to deal w/ Nan and continue Spokes. #nycsc
20:21 pm
RT @AliaGee1: @LibertySqGA Did it N17 when some guys were swearing and shouting at us that we weren't real New Yorkers. (Not exactly the ...
20:23 pm
Stairs: "I have a POI: the pastor of the church is here, and de-escalation has been empowered to deal w/ this situation however we…" #nycsc
20:24 pm
Cont'd: -- sorry, "they see fit." Suggests that may include calling for outside help. Suggestion has also been made to halt SC and have...
20:24 pm
Cont'd: …a "general community meeting to deal w/ what's happening right now." Asks if we want to do that. Temp check? #nycsc #ows
20:24 pm
.@lmnopie suggests they put a time limit on it. @shawncarrie: "It seems like things are kind of dissolving; I think it makes sense to…"
20:25 pm
Cont'd: "…halt what we're doing, and deal with this now." @HelloFrances: "I'd hate for this to derail the Spokescouncil. Let's keep moving."
20:25 pm
.@shawncarrie: "I'd like to note the best thing you can do is reach in and find peace in yourself, and not get sucked in." #nycsc #ows
20:26 pm
@heratylaw definitely never happened at Spokes tho, and I've never really seen it at GA except for like drunk non-members of community.
20:27 pm
.@shawncarrie: "In order for us to facilitate process, the room needs to facilitate itself and draw attention to the group." #nycsc
20:27 pm
Wow, the room just dropped to near silence, punctuated only by a couple of people still talking who have been unable to step back. #nycsc
20:28 pm
.@shawncarrie: "The spending freeze brought up some bad vibes, but also some underlying issue." Moving along… #nycsc #ows
20:28 pm
Cont'd: "We had 2 proposals that were brought to us at the start of this reason; one was financial, the other one wasn't." #nycsc #ows
20:28 pm
Cont'd: "What we're going to do is go ahead with the non-financial proposal." #nycsc #ows
20:29 pm
@heratylaw applied to whom?
20:29 pm
TechOps' PoP: "Tech feels the discussion we were having is not finished; I'd like to take a temp check to see if.." #nycsc #ows
20:30 pm
Cont'd: "…people feel strongly about finishing the discussion that we brought up," re: whether Spokes is bound by GA spending freeze.#nycsc
20:32 pm
OK, Facilitation is going to try to clarify this and "propose that the Spokescouncil consense on cooperating w/ the spending freeze." #nycsc
20:33 pm
Facilitation also suggests that we support and contribute to process of establishing the Financial Assembly empowered to unfreeze $. #nycsc
20:36 pm
.@shawncarrie making a heroic effort to refocus the room, despite disruptors talking constantly. #nycsc #ows
20:37 pm
Stairs: "We've tried several things to move forward, and it hasn't worked for the room…" Other people stepping up to try to facilitate.
20:39 pm
Sage is stepping up. "I've asked the Facilitation team to allow me to bring --" "Oh, no," starts a chorus of boos. #nycsc #ows
20:40 pm
Nan's trying to mic check; no one's responding. There's probably no more clear rejection frm this community than unspoken ban frm human mic.
20:40 pm
.@shawncarrie: "This is really difficult. I don't know the way to proceed. But it starts w/ one mic; one voice. We might get somewhere.."
20:41 pm
Cont'd: "…from one person speaking at a time." Suggests one way forward would be to open a stack for people who feel need to speak to do so.
20:42 pm
Cont'd: The next way: "to hear the proposal facilitation has brought," and finally to ask "if there are other things we want to talk about."
20:43 pm
Sully steps up. "I'm asking for your permission to jump in to facilitate." Some clap.[I strongly feel this wasn't about facilitation.]#nycsc
20:44 pm
Sully: "I need a minute to figure out what's going on." Teddy Mic Checks. "I'm Teddy. I live here. We've lost a place to live here…" #nycsc
20:44 pm
Cont'd: "…if Spokescouncil acts like this, we'll lose this place for Spokescouncil. So fuckin' grow up, and fuckin' behave." #nycsc #ows
20:44 pm
Jeff: POI: "The Reverend of this church wanted to address the community this evening re: spokescouncil and events in housing here."
20:46 pm
Jeff asks that we give him space to speak here, introduces Reverend Bob. Says he's an activist and supports us strongly. #nycsc #ows
20:46 pm
Rev Bob: "Just let me say a few words; I'm not going to take too long. Re: Spokescouncil: tonight -- " interrupted by a disruptor whistling.
20:47 pm
Cont'd: "You're not the only people in here. There are classes below you. Obviously what happened earlier can't happen." #nycsc #ows
20:47 pm
Cont'd: "What I want is a community of communities. We want an intention of mutual respect and mutual accountability." #nycsc #ows
20:47 pm
Cont'd: "When this group is in here Wednesday night, it can't go down like this. It can't happen. I have a responsibility to make sure.."
20:47 pm
Cont'd: "…everyone in this space, and the neighbors feel safe and secure." RE: what happened recently… #nycsc #ows
20:48 pm
"A few weeks ago, my laptop was stolen. I'm an urban chapter; it happens. I'll get something back. But now we're in a place where we have…"
20:48 pm
Cont'd: "…to put locks on the door. That's not social progress, that's social egress." Tells us that they had a very old Baptismal fount..
20:49 pm
Cont'd: "We discovered the other day, the base was gone," other parts missing. Noticed by someone whose entire family was baptized there...
20:49 pm
Cont'd: "It's not God that makes it holy; it's people's experiences, people's hopes." "Even in 80s, when crackheads came in here w/ knives…"
20:49 pm
Cont'd: "…even they didn't mess w/ that stuff." Asks that SC somehow coherently respond to that incident; wants the thing put back together.
20:50 pm
Cont'd: "It's not like, 'i'm sorry, it won't happen again.' I have to speak to pain of ppl who felt their lives were violated by that."
20:50 pm
Rev. Bob says if we can't do that, then we can't stay here. "Consensus is really cool. It works if everyone agrees on what the goal is…"
20:51 pm
Cont'd: "…and if you're committed to one another. If you're not, it stops being a vehicle of empowerment, becomes vehicle of oppression."
20:51 pm
Cont'd: "We all know what the other side is capable of. And you're all gonna make it easy for them, they won't have to lift a finger."#nycsc
20:51 pm
Cont'd: "Don't make it easy for them. This is the long haul. You've all got to be in solidarity w/ one another, or it's over. OK?" #nycsc
20:52 pm
Reverend Bob thanks us. We applaud heartily, and when it settles down the room is quiet for the first time in an hour. #nycsc #ows
20:52 pm
Someone steps up. "On behalf of these people, we need to apologize. We're beyond sorry." Have been working towards solutions. #nycsc
20:53 pm
The basin was found recently. They're working to put it together, or to get artists to build something of meaningful replacement. #nycsc
20:53 pm
The next thing is to go and publicly apologize to the congregation, to show "we don't need to resort to stealing." #nycsc #ows
20:53 pm
"We signed community agreements 2 days ago that said we have to be accountable for the behavior of those staying here." #nycsc
20:54 pm
"We need to change the dynamic here, and we apologize it hasn't been done before. We need people to be involved in OWS, Spokes, actions."
20:54 pm
"I know there have been people working w/ building; we'll get more of that. We'll present it to the people who stay here, and I know all…"
20:54 pm
Cont'd: "…the ppl who stay here who are in this room, they're committed to the work." "Those ppl actually here are the ones who'll work."
20:56 pm
Anthony: "I don't stay at the churches; never have. But when it comes to manual labor, I'm fine with that in any spare time I have."
20:56 pm
Cont'd: "I also want to say, we're all a family, we're all a community. We should not be fuckin' each other over." #nycsc #ows
20:56 pm
Sully notes we've had a request to monitor our language in the space we're in. #nycsc #ows
20:57 pm
Sully: "We've had a presentation of a proposed solution to this situation, so let's take some CQs and see if it works for the room." #nycsc
20:58 pm
Bob: "I got impression I wasn't going to get a coherent response." Feels we need a 2-3 day break, but "I'm open to being cnvncd diffrntly."
20:59 pm
Bob requests that the suggestion that came from the two proposers who spoke earlier be written down so he can respond to it. #nycsc
20:59 pm
Bob: "I'd like if you could use your networks to return the original [missing component], but if not, I could live with #OWS creating..."
20:59 pm
Cont'd: "…a replacement that will last, so 40 years from now after I'm gone people will look at it and say, "Occupy Wall Street, who..."
21:00 pm
Cont'd: "…changed the world, created that, something that became a part of this congregation."" #nycsc #ows
21:00 pm
Next, Translation. "We talked about a safe space, people should respect language. Everyone's walking around, instead of being…" #nycsc
21:00 pm
Cont'd: "…in a circle. It's really disruptive; please respect our group. I understand this is a sensitive issue, and there's a lot of…"
21:01 pm
Cont'd: "…emotion involve, and we don't want to forget we're here too. We use a visual language, we need to be able to see."
21:01 pm
Cont'd: "I understand some things happen, and that's completely understandable. But please, be aware of us." Translated from ASL. #nycsc
21:02 pm
Sully: "B/c what we're talking about right now is about space, and deals with a lot of people's needs, I want to ask that we move out of…"
21:02 pm
Cont'd: "…Spokes mode to deal with this agenda item." OK, we're doing that. So people who aren't Spokes can speak. #nycsc #ows
21:03 pm
Mike: "I want to know if we can compensate them for the lost computer and basin top. I've heard comments we didn't do it…" #nycsc #ows
21:03 pm
Cont'd: "…but we'll suffer for it if we can't compensate for it. I do think we need to get the church back where they were before we came.."
21:04 pm
Cont'd: "…in fact, it was our intention to leave them better off. We should leave them in a better place and they were before." #nycsc #ows
21:04 pm
Sully asks if proposals accept that friendly amendment. "Yes, no questions asked. That would be great." #nycsc #ows
21:04 pm
Next: "First, I came from Miami FL, and I'm eternally grateful to be able to stay at this church. Pastor has a heart of gold for letting.."
21:05 pm
Cont'd: "…us stay here," despite the bad things that happened. "I really appreciate the idea that [inaudible] and Maria came.."
21:05 pm
Cont'd: "…up with," wants people here to be involved, be part of the community, empowered, self-directed. #nycsc #ows
21:05 pm
Cont'd: "I'd like to be able to respond to consequences of actions" within our community. "If it weren't for us, none of this would have.."
21:05 pm
Cont'd: "…happened to him or this church. So I agree with us compensating him," going forward and "making this church better than it was."
21:06 pm
Also, she asks us if she knows where she and others from this church can stay the night if they're kicked out. #nycsc #ows
21:06 pm
"There were about 70 of us… we're going to be staying outside tonight." Ouch. Sully notes that we need to do one thing at a time #nycsc #ows
21:07 pm
Sully: "What we have right now is a proposal to redress," try to deal w/ this space. Suggests breakout to deal w/ immediate housing needs.
21:07 pm
Nick is "very disappointed in Facilitation today because they wanted to hear a budget proposal," had an emergency meeting today which...
21:08 pm
Cont'd: …should have been how to settle this. [This has nothing to do with Facilitation's responsibilities. -Ed.] #nycsc #ows
21:08 pm
Nick proposes we purchase a new baptismal thing for this church. #nycsc #ows
21:09 pm
Sully notes that that is, indeed, the proposal we're discussing. #nycsc #ows
21:11 pm
Next person says "#1 priority" is to replace the man's laptop. Says we don't need signs, meetings. [OK, so how do we allocate $? Ugh. -Ed.]
21:12 pm
Next, Tio suggests we need to have a participation requirement for people to be staying in #OWS housing. "Everyone should be in.."#nycsc
21:12 pm
Cont'd: "…a working group or somehow involved in the movement." Sully asks him how that relates to the proposal; it's a friendly amendment.
21:12 pm
Sully: "What I'm hearing is an amendment to the proposal requiring that people in housing have to be in working groups." #nycsc #ows
21:13 pm
Proposer: "I think people need to be responsible for the community. Maybe not finance, but the cleanup crew we have here -- get involved."
21:13 pm
Tio: "How do you mean, chores and helping out?" That's basically what she means, yes. Tio: "I feel that's not enough." #nycsc #ows
21:14 pm
Nan: "When the Metrocard budget came to GA, we added that as a friendly amendment." Suggests needs to be added to housing budget request.
21:15 pm
Sully: "It seems to me we're talking about things beyond scope of this specific problem; I'm asking we focus on the problem at hand." #nycsc
21:16 pm
James from Organization: "I'm really concerned we've left SC mode and are now in a Twilight Zone mode, where we have no process…" #nycsc
21:16 pm
Cont;'d: "If this isn't Spokescouncil, and isn't a GA, how are we doing this?" Sully: "We're still a Spokescouncil. We've been asked to.."
21:16 pm
Cont'd: "…respond to this specific issue." Notes precedent for Spokescouncil leaving Spokes format and going to individual mode...
21:17 pm
Cont'd: …and notes that it's because this affects ppl in the room who aren't Spokes or part of working groups. #nycsc #ows
21:17 pm
Anthony's POI: "NYPD are sending homeless people to our churches." Accounting: "I feel I was totally disrespected. I came in…" #nycsc
21:19 pm
Cont'd: "…and I signed something saying I'd be good. It kind of goes against everything I believe, but I signed it. We all did." #nycsc #ows
21:19 pm
Cont'd: She's mad that "Facilitation didn't step up" to deal w/ the disruption. Says that she and Reverend Bob are similar in age… #nycsc
21:20 pm
Cont'd: "…and I'm sorry to sound like an old leftie, but we knew in our day that some of those people were cops." #nycsc #ows
21:22 pm
Sully suggests proposers answer how they'll deal w/ disruption. She feels that they'll need a "tiny bit of power" to exclude disruptors.
21:23 pm
Susie, Support: "It's my understanding that as far as this proposal goes, the Pastor was clear on what he wanted, which was…" #nycsc #ows
21:23 pm
Cont'd: "…what the specific proposal was, which was re: lid to baptismal font." Notes laptop is dealt w/ already, and not about disruption.
21:24 pm
Cont'd: "I have no problem if the Spokescouncil as a whole wants to address it, but he wanted to be addressed RE: lid before end of SC."
21:24 pm
Cont'd: She also notes that Bob mentioned he still wanted to remove #OWSers for 2 days; but it's very cold tonight and it's conceivable...
21:24 pm
Cont'd: …if we communicate with him satisfactorily he might let some ppl stay during the next 2 days. "But during those 2 days, I believe.."
21:25 pm
Cont'd: "..that he'd like #OWS, the Spokescouncil to come up with a way of dealing with how he can relate to #OWS more efficiently…" #nycsc
21:25 pm
Cont'd: "…more smoothly, dealing with communication and lines of authority." Suggests the 2-day breather is intended to help come up w/ tht.
21:25 pm
Cont'd: "I don't think he wants to be a part of that process; he feels, and I think we agree, that it's incumbent on #OWS." #nycsc #ows
21:27 pm
OK, next on stack: Nan. "I feel very sorry for those ppl who've had to sleep outside during the cold, & some of them are #occupiers." #nycsc
21:27 pm
Cont'd: "But I feel those individuals who force their will, their policing, whatever you want to call it, is wrong. For example, one…"
21:28 pm
Cont'd: "…of the things being policing…" Says she loves her occupiers, but feels this space isn't safe. Now starting in on spending freeze.
21:29 pm
Sully: "We're not making a decision about how this space will be used; this is a petition for redress." #nycsc #ows
21:32 pm
Someone asks they clarify proposal. "It's that we'll either replace the font, or have some artists come up w/ something equivalent…" #nycsc
21:32 pm
Cont'd: "…an apology to the congregation, an overall change in how we're going to operate here, things like that." #nycsc #ows
21:33 pm
Sully: "So what does this room need to agree to?" A: "To give us the power to redress situation with Pastor." #nycsc #ows
21:33 pm
Sully recaps, noting main components of plan are to redress grievances of material loss and then also work to solidify community agreements.
21:34 pm
CQ: "Seems there was a security element before; that got lost somewhere along the line." A: "That was about something already fixed.."#nycsc
21:34 pm
Sully: "To be clear, it's not part of the proposal." Jake, TechOps wants to know why we're talking about this as a Spokescouncil if it's...
21:35 pm
Cont'd: …about the community living here. Sully: "We were asked to do this tonight." #nycsc #ows
21:36 pm
Someone asked about whether a budget is required. Sully: "Is that getting covered here or would that need another proposal?" #nycsc #ows
21:36 pm
They answer it would need another proposal. Right now it's unclear where any budget money would come from anyway. #nycsc #ows
21:37 pm
Evelyn: "Paying Pastor back is right thing to do, but it's not sustainable." Proposes a community watch, so ppl will be held accountable.
21:37 pm
Cont'd: "Some of us may lose our privacy, but if it protects property, if we can't establish trust, it might be needed." #nycsc #ows
21:38 pm
Cont'd: "Trust is imperative, but unfortunately" we're not there. "Please, be mindful of where you are." #nycsc #ows
21:39 pm
Someone notes that the Church also expects that people who stay here are active participants in their communities. #nycsc #ows
21:40 pm
They suggest that anyone who stays here should need to be signed for by a WG "point person". Housing notes they tried. #nycsc #ows
21:41 pm
The proposers ask how the community feels about that friendly amendment. Lots of uptwinkles. Ravi and Nan are pointing PoIs at each other
21:41 pm
Ravi: "Hi! One of the things we've been working on really hard is to build strong relationships w/ communities" at churches "so that.."
21:41 pm
Cont'd: "..everyone who wants to be actively involved in the community, can be." Thinks OWS Work can get everyone involved. #nycsc #ows
21:42 pm
Ravi also notes there have been many people here not participating. Also, people have not been coming to actions. "That is a problem."#nycsc
21:43 pm
Nan's POI was pure opinion, but she notes that she suggested the same thing at last housing proposal. #nycsc #ows
21:44 pm
Sully recaps: "We've had an amendment to require working group participation; and Housing has asked how ppl feel about that." #nycsc #ows
21:45 pm
Sully: "I'm seeing POIs all over, but sometimes you just have to keep rolling." Starts temp check. "That looks pretty good." #nycsc #ows
21:46 pm
Someone interjects w/ a PoI, & it's not informational. The room gets unruly. Sully, killin' it: "Hey, room! Let me deal with it! Thank you!"
21:47 pm
The proposers accept the amendment. Sean from Town Planning notes that ppl visiting need some kind of dispensation. #nycsc #ows
21:47 pm
Ravi has a PoI, coaxes Sully to hear it: "Ppl from other occupations can join 2 working groups: Occupiers and Inter-Occupy." #nycsc #ows
21:48 pm
Next, Chris. "I have a concern w/ the proposal; I've been a member of this community; I'm concerned we have nowhere to stay tonight if..."
21:48 pm
Cont'd: "…this doesn't work out. But my concern is that as a group, we're not really addressing the issue of whether we deserve this space."
21:48 pm
Cont'd: "Whether through all these spaces we've been offered and kicked out of, we've never addressed question of why we can't…" #nycsc
21:48 pm
Cont'd: "…maintain this space, why we can't come together as a group and be respectful of the spaces offered us. I think this proposal is.."
21:49 pm
Cont'd: "…a good-faith effort to deal w/ these problems, but I think having a piecemeal solution at the last second under duress of.."#nycsc
21:49 pm
Cont'd: "…not having somewhere to stay isn't the way to do it." Asks that we examine why this happens and ask if we deserve these places...
21:49 pm
Cont'd: …generous support. Next: "My concern is it sounds like Pastor wanted actual piece returned; sounds like a lot of the proposal is.."
21:50 pm
Cont'd: "…to replace it." Suggests they add something to proposal for outreach for trying to get it back. #nycsc #ows
21:50 pm
First point, proposer says, is to find the stolen piece. Sully notes this sounds like it's more abt implementation than the proposal. #nycsc
21:50 pm
Jake: "My concern is there are 2 ways we use this space; 1 is housing, 1 is SC. While I appreciate your effort to step up and say you'll.."
21:51 pm
Cont'd: "…enforce our agreements, I don't have much faith it's possible. I haven't been very involved in housing; maybe it's possible..."
21:51 pm
Cont'd: "…there, but I don't think it's possible in Spokescouncil." People have worked hard, but so far we haven't proved we have a fix.
21:51 pm
Cont'd: "So for us to go in front of Pastor and Congregation and put the name of #OWS on the line again, I can't support that because…"
21:52 pm
Cont'd: "…I don't think we can do it." Proposer understands, but notes that if we give up here, we lose housing and SC space. #nycsc #ows
21:52 pm
Jeff PoI: "The proposer is asking for only one resolution. But these requests are from this community, that if they give their consent..."
21:53 pm
Cont'd: "…to give to the pastor.." says that it's valid for Spokescouncil to be raising these concerns. We all agree, tho. #nycsc #ows
21:53 pm
Sully: "I'm hearing lots of different perspectives on what Pastor wants. But we did hear from the Pastor." #nycsc #ows
21:53 pm
Sully notes that what we really need is to decide if this is a proposal we as a community can move forward with. #nycsc #ows
21:54 pm
Next, someone who stepped up to facilitate earlier apologizes "for yelling at you earlier, but when you see the room escalate," hard to sit.
21:54 pm
Cont'd: "I want to propose that 3 days from now, we have an event w/ musicians, comedy, speakers from community to speak…" #nycsc
21:55 pm
Cont'd: "…about what they wish to say, without being speaken over, ridiculed, judged, and will be a time for potential forgiveness." #nycsc
21:56 pm
Sully has to stop her, because it has nothing to do with the proposal. She gets up, upset, and leaves. #nycsc #ows
21:58 pm
Jason from Faciliatation asks that we stop talking about this and just pass it, since "I don't see it as that complicated." #nycsc #ows
21:58 pm
Next concern is similar to the earlier one that we shouldn't ask for another chance without a solution to the problem. #nycsc #ows
21:59 pm
"These churches have been asked to house activists for #OWS, and that's just not what's been going on in our housing." #nycsc #ows
22:01 pm
Proposer asks for a temp check on that friendly amendment, which is to say we'll only be here another week, and then vacate. #nycsc #ows
22:04 pm
The temp check was mixed to negative on that one, which isn't super shocking. Ravi: "This whole situation has been really tough. I've been..
22:04 pm
Cont'd: "..staying here for a minute. This is a tough room, and you guys have been fantastic, & putting this together is really admirable."
22:05 pm
Cont'd: "We should recognize that. My concern is regarding our inability to hold to our community agreements. There have been situations.."
22:05 pm
Cont'd: "…where agreements that have been consensed upon that have been overturned on an ad hoc basis. There is no promise we could make..."
22:05 pm
Cont'd: "..to this wonderful man and this wonderful community that we couldn't potentially break." Suggests we need an exit strategy. #nycsc
22:06 pm
Her FA is to empower "specific people with the authority to reject people who have violated those proposals." Suggests it be De-Escalation.
22:06 pm
Cont'd: "Without that, we are animals; if we can't keep our word, we are animals. We must specifically empower people to help us enforce.."
22:06 pm
Cont'd: "…community agreements by rejecting people if that is necessary." She wants a process for that. Nan is yelling, because she knows.
22:07 pm
Proposer: "I worked at SPSA for a long time, but I learned a lot and made a lot of mistakes. This won't make me the most popular person..."
22:09 pm
Proposer: "I worked at SPSA for a long time, but I learned a lot and made a lot of mistakes. This won't make me the most popular person..."
22:09 pm
Cont'd: "…in the room, but I agree. One of the biggest problems is that we came here with no rules." The community agreement "failed."
22:09 pm
Cont'd: "And I'm sad that it failed, because there are amazing ppl here and I respect them and what they do. But because it hasn't…"
22:09 pm
Cont'd: "…worked, there need to be a few ppl who take responsibility and action so we can actually stay somewhere and not just…"
22:09 pm
Cont'd: "…do something on empty promises, blindly, with no actual way to enforce it or do something for ourselves." Accountability.
22:10 pm
Cont'd: "…do something on empty promises, blindly, with no actual way to enforce it or do something for ourselves." Accountability.
22:11 pm
"There needs to be good people here, the good people who do the same work out there for #OWS every day. So I'm going to accept the FA."
22:11 pm
Sully asks her to clarify. Proposer: "De-escalation and some people from the community will be given a tiny bit of power to enforce."
22:11 pm
.@lmnopie suggests that people need to reckon w/ difference b/w work for movement and work at Churches. "That's not work, that's chores."
22:12 pm
Cont'd: "We all hv to do that." Says people actually nd to be involved in #OWS, wants to extend FA to rule out "chores" as "work for mvmnt."
22:12 pm
Sage bursts out with an accusation, and immediately apologizes and puts his hands over his mouth. De-escalation pulls him aside. #nycsc #ows
22:13 pm
.@lmnopie continues, expressing concern, like many, with lack of accountability. Reiterates her FA. Stairs notes we only have til 10:30.
22:14 pm
Nan makes a personal attack at proposers and accuses them of "policing people." "This movement is not about policing people…" #nycsc
22:14 pm
Cont'd: "…communication is what we're missing. You can ask what they need." "You opened the door for those ppl to defend themselves. And.."
22:14 pm
Cont'd: "…a person like me, if people try to police me, I'm going to fight you. And if you touch me, that's going to be another step. So.."
22:15 pm
Cont'd: "..you people really need to think about that." Says is concerned with how folks are dealing with disruption. #nycsc #ows
22:15 pm
Finally, gets to FA. "Before you guys try policing people, I'd ask tht you guys talk to person, ask what they need before policing anybody."
22:16 pm
The amendment is accepted. "We're not about policing people, Nan; it's not about throwing someone out." Sully asks ppl to stop side condos.
22:17 pm
Sully: 'What I heard was a FA committing to a de-escalation tactic whn enforcement is required. A commitment to going through non-violent.."
22:17 pm
Cont'd: "…channels." That was accepted, he reiterates. Nan seems mollified. Sully: "That was the end of stack, and we're…" #nycsc #ows
22:17 pm
Cont'd: "…close to the end of time here." Asks people to stick to topic, strictly. #nycsc #ows
22:20 pm
Jake's CQ: "Does the accepted amendment to ask people to leave apply to Spokes or just housing?" [Nooooooo! Don't do it! -Ed.] #nycsc #ows
22:21 pm
Answer is no, just housing. Room did not explode. Close call. Sully opens a stack for any desperately needed statements, Cs an FAs. #nycsc
22:21 pm
.@wookietv notes we've already done those stacks; Sully clarifies that stack was closed before all were spoken. Corey: "That happens w/..."
22:22 pm
Cont'd: "…every stack, and we don't go back." Sully recognizes this, but wants to give people a chance. There's not much -- stack closed.
22:23 pm
Oh, 1 more, FA asks that "if de-escalation removes someone, the community has a chance to consense on it in meeting." Accepted. #nycsc #ows
22:24 pm
Max notes that "the pastor doesn't expect us to solve our housing problems now; just wants us to make amends." Sully clarifies that… #nycsc
22:24 pm
Cont'd: …the Spokescouncil has expressed clearly that beyond amends, they want to be prepared to do better going forward. #nycsc #ows
22:25 pm
Ronnie says that he spoke to Pastor, and what he wants most is cohesion. I guess we're back to FAs; his is "if we are unable to maintain..."
22:25 pm
Cont'd: "…and keep this space, then we leave the movement. If you want to maintain this space, you need to put yourself on the line for it..
22:25 pm
Cont'd: "You need to go beyond words to action and own it, maintain this space, show the Pastor you're serious." #nycsc #ows
22:26 pm
Sully notes that he saw a lot of response, but wants to be clear "it goes beyond what we can do in this proposal b/c it goes beyond…" #nycsc
22:26 pm
Cont'd: "…principles of solidarity w/r/t autonomy. We can't require individuals to leave the movement, I'm sorry." #nycsc #ows
22:27 pm
People are frustrated with that, ask if that's an opinion. "OK, I'm sorry; ppl didn't like my process point, I'll withdraw it." #nycsc #ows
22:27 pm
Tempchecking the FA. Proposer asks if people could be asked to leave the community instead of the movement. #nycsc #ows
22:28 pm
Ronnie: "If we don't follow the agreements, we should leave the movement. That requires an even greater sacrifice from us." #nycsc #ows
22:28 pm
OK, 2 minutes til we become some sort of self-propelling tuber, so we're trying to wrap up stack ASAP. #nycsc #ows
22:30 pm
Next, Jason. "I'm repeating myself: my concern is we're out of time." That's it -ppl are basically chanting "vote", which is weird. #nycsc
22:30 pm
Nan is next. Sully: "I'm going to ask you: this is an outstanding concern or statement?" A: "Yes. If you need to remove someone, how will.."
22:31 pm
Cont'd: "…you do that?" People reject this question; it's implementation. Sully: "I feel we've already addressed tht as well as we can now."
22:31 pm
Proposal restated: "We'll find the stolen font if we can, or replace it w/ artist's work; we'll apologize to congregation… we need to…"
22:32 pm
Cont'd: "…change the dynamic, we need to hold people accountable, we need to be parts of working groups, we can't just make empty promises..
22:33 pm
She's trying to figure out FAs: "The working group thing (not chores), de-escalation thing, 24-hour appeal process, and we need…" #nycsc
22:34 pm
Cont'd: "…to remove ourselves from the community if we break the agreements." Sully: "OK, I'm going to ask the room; how do we feel?" #nycsc
22:35 pm
Jake asks if we're spokes, or individuals. Sully: "We're still moving forward outside of spokes formation b/c we said we'd do this tht way."
22:35 pm
Blocks? 10 blocks. Ravi: "I <3 you guys, but we've in this community consensed on rules and changed them constantly in last 2 weeks." #nycsc
22:35 pm
Cont'd: "We have betrayed our word; ppl not on the housing list have been let in, because we dropped that rule. I do not believe that the.."
22:35 pm
Cont'd: "..the community here has the moral or political strength to stick to the rules we agreed on. We can't even stick in spokes to..."
22:36 pm
Cont'd: "…things we all agreed on. Verbal altercations." Doesn't think we could give our word to this congregation. #nycsc #ows
22:36 pm
Sully: "Is there an amendment that would allow you to remove your block?" A: "I don't see how." Folks: "She has somewhere to sleep tonight."
22:36 pm
Ravi: "I would like to first of all, say, I think personal attacks are really inappropriate. I was going to address that concern." #nycsc
22:37 pm
Cont'd; "There's a friendly amendment on the table to ask the Pastor for 1 wk so we can create an exit strategy." That would resolve block.
22:38 pm
Proposer: "If we worked together for a week, followed every rule, could we bring it back?" Ravi is very skeptical... #nycsc #ows
22:40 pm
Several of the blockers seem to feel the community consensus appeal process is a loophole. They want de-escalation to handle it. #nycsc
22:41 pm
Jeff's block: "The list of rules that were given to us were given to us by Rev Bob. I've seen this community come together to make…" #nycsc
22:42 pm
Cont'd: "…consensus to overturn the rules given by Bob, the landlord." Doesn't find that tenable. #nycsc #OWS
22:42 pm
Proposer says that once a rule is broken, they're out. But consensus is to resolve grey areas. Sully: "Can we clarify that the consensus.."
22:43 pm
Cont'd: "…process is only for determining if a violation has occurred?" Yes. Jeff is possibly appeased. #nycsc #ows
22:43 pm
Next Block: "I'll remove my block if Spokescouncil will also go along with these guidelines." Folks observe we're not really SC right now...
22:44 pm
Sully: "To clarify, we are still the Spokescouncil; we're not meeting in Spokescouncil mode." Hmmm. #nycsc #ows
22:45 pm
Moving to next block. Jose, Medics: "I'll continue tonight to help finding housing for ppl in this community. I think it's a basic human…"
22:45 pm
Cont'd: "…right. I think we need to take a step back and check what we're doing. We're talking about housing 100 people. I came here.."
22:46 pm
Cont'd: "…to radically change the world. I want to develop housing as a human right for all." Has safety concerns with providing services...
22:46 pm
Cont'd: …in this way. "We can't keep trying to service housing in this way," yanking it out from under them. Hook them up w/ existing...
22:46 pm
Cont'd: …resources, and "although they do it horribly, let's organize to change that. Let's stop harming people; that's my sense." #nycsc
22:47 pm
Cont'd: "We're not helping people by providing this space for a limited period of time, so I'll block this." #nycsc #ows
22:48 pm
Jose also notes that he'd be interested in an exit strategy. Next, "I admire dedication and activism of those in housing…" #nycsc #ows
22:48 pm
Cont'd: "…but this project is enabling the utter selfishness of some people and is damaging the movement." #nycsc #ows
22:48 pm
Lopi's block is about "accountability, which is very close to consequences. If you do not face consequences you're not being accountable."
22:48 pm
Cont'd; "If I don't lock my bike up, my bike is stolen. I don't have some daddy to get me a new bike. I have to face consequences." #nycsc
22:49 pm
Cont;d: "The situation wasn't set up so this could happen, and people need to be accountable. The consequence is, we can't have space."
22:49 pm
Cont'd: "The exit strategy for a week; I can try to find housing. That's it." #nycsc #ows
22:49 pm
Nan's block. "The reason I'm blocking-- I have a very moral ethical concern; I don't know what the process is we should be using." #nycsc
22:50 pm
If they can explain the exclusion process to her, "I'll stand by." But in the meantime, blocking. #nycsc #ows
22:50 pm
Dovid, nearby me, quietly: "She has a moral, ethical concern to holding people to a moral, ethical standard." #nycsc #ows
22:51 pm
Next block points out that due process "of investigating what is actually occurring" needs to be established to avoid witch hunts. #nycsc
22:51 pm
"If it's clear, they've violated the rules consistently, at that point we'd try to help them understand that so they can leave on their…"
22:51 pm
Cont'd: "…own merits. If they won't leave on their own merits, then we may remove them as a threat to the community." #nycsc #ows
22:52 pm
Sorry, that was not a block; it was De-Escalation addressing Nan's concern. Sully asks if it satisfies Nan's block. Nan is worried by...
22:52 pm
Cont'd: …the language "threat to the community." "That worries me. How can you know they're a threat if they choose not to move?" #nycsc
22:53 pm
De-escalation gives examples: "If you're making verbal threats, have weapons on you, pushed someone down stairs," that makes them a threat.
22:54 pm
Proposer says "I would accept a 2-week exit strategy for this place." Sully says he understands that this removes several blocks. #nycsc
22:54 pm
Sully: "I'm redoing the process; there's an amendment that sets a 2-week exit strategy. How does room feel about proposal in its…" #nycsc
22:54 pm
Cont'd: "…newly-revised state?" Sully says it looks super mixed. "Are there any blocks to this proposal?" Nan: "I'm blocking." #nycsc #ows
22:55 pm
Many voices in unified dismay: "Why is she blocking???" [Tragically cute, like Bambi by the roadside… -Ed.] #nycsc #ows
22:56 pm
Sully: "The proposal is the exact same proposal we just had, plus an amendment the says we're only staying for 2 weeks…" #nycsc
22:56 pm
Cont'd: "…and over the course of it, we'll develop an exit strategy that avoids people just instantly being left out in cold." #nycsc #ows
22:56 pm
Sully: "That 2 weeks is to allow for a plan to figure out what happens afterwards." Someone clarifies: Jose: "For me to be comfortable..."
22:57 pm
Cont'd: "…with this, this is not just 2 weeks to recreate this clusterfuck in another space. I think we should be very clear that…" #nycsc
22:57 pm
Cont'd: "…we leave this space 2 weeks from today, and we don't re-enter another space until this body decides how we're going to do that…"
22:57 pm
Cont'd: "…and why we're going to do that." Specifically rules out people autonomously going to find housing and "calling that #OWS." #nycsc
22:59 pm
The proposer accepts that. Next block: "2 weeks is too long. I want one week." Yikes. #nycsc #ows
23:00 pm
Room very tense; it's like the last 2 minutes of a Celtics-Lakers game… and yes, that's a regrettably applicable metaphor. #nycsc #ows
23:01 pm
(#NYCSC is still continuing over at @LibertySqGA3! Very intense right now.) #nycsc #ows
23:02 pm
Another block is very personal, requests that Jeff & the proposer not be involved in the de-escalation. It's accepted; block removed? #nycsc
23:02 pm
Next, Archives: "Everything that's happened in the churches and shelters is humiliating, embarrassing to movement as a whole." #nycsc
23:03 pm
Cont'd: "And as we keep prolonging this for another 2 weeks, what is going to happen? I'm embarrassed b/c of what's happened in Housing."
23:03 pm
Cont'd: "Extenuating it for another 2 weeks -- I don't think we have to do that. I think 1 week is enough." Holding block. #nycsc #ows
23:04 pm
Sully asks what amendment would get her to remove it, she says 1 week. Proposer says it would be almost impossible to do for 100 ppl. #nycsc
23:05 pm
P: "I'm asking for 2 weeks, in consideration of how many people have jobs and can't meet all the time." No, blocker stands. #nycsc
23:05 pm
Anthony's block: "We're all being selfish here." Feels we've really done poorly to spaces. "We're not coming up with solutions." #nycsc #ows
23:06 pm
Cont'd: "You've let lots of people yelling slide; when some ppl have tried to make sense out of process, you've shut them down." #nycsc
23:06 pm
Anthony tells us that he finds places to sleep. "We should be more damn resourceful! We're activists." Notes that we might need to...
23:07 pm
Cont'd: …help sm people find a place to sleep who *need* to be under a roof, but others cn find a way. "The E train is warm all damn night."
23:07 pm
Cont'd: "I don't want to see this fall apart ." Sully asks him if anything wld remove his block. "Nothing I've heard, unfortunately." #nycsc
23:08 pm
Sully prepares to move to modified consensus. "At this point, consensus has failed. We weren't able to reach consensus. So now we're..."
23:08 pm
Cont'd: "…asking people to vote whether they're for or against this proposal. If 90% are in favor, it will pass, in spite of the blocks."
23:08 pm
Sully: "Now I'd like all those in favor to please raise their hands." Counting… #nycsc #ows
23:11 pm
Not sure about official # of yeses yet. Now asking how many are opposed… #nycsc #ows
23:11 pm
Sully: "We're 81 in favor, and 7 opposed. It does pass by 9/10ths consensus." Cheers from many! "We're out of time, we need to leave."#nycsc
23:12 pm
OK fam! That's it for tonite's #NYCSC! Thanks for following along. Lots of interesting developments tonight. Peace and love and #solidarity.
23:13 pm
[Any questions, comments, concerns, e-drink tokens, co-option attempts and missing baptismal basins, hit me up @diceytroop. Thx fam! -Ed.]