21:54 pm
A: "…we're still working on that. That's why you've only seen a few people as spokes. We left WoW because it became more inclusive…" #nycsc
21:54 pm
WoW's spoke: "WoW doesn't want to be brought into this discussion. So if WoN could leave WoW out of it." #nycsc #ows
21:55 pm
Concern: "You asked us to consider differences between you and another group." Aren't we going for more inclusiveness? #nycsc #ows
21:56 pm
A: "Women Occupying Wall street" -- WoW corrects her -- "Women Occupying Nations wants to be inclusive…" #nycsc #ows
21:56 pm
Ashley being pressed on what "anyone who identifies as a woman" means. Ashley: "Anyone who self-identifies as a woman." #nycsc #ows
21:57 pm
A: "Including men?" Ashley: "If you are born one way but self-identify as a woman, we welcome you." #nycsc #ows
21:57 pm
Next: "Some men can identify as women, but if you accept someone who was born men and ID as women, why don't you accept trans men?"#nycsc
21:58 pm
A: "Some transmen friends as I think it would be offensive for us to accept them in a women's caucus." Not "transphobic". #nycsc #ows
21:58 pm
A: "We're not anti-man; I don't know why people are upset. It's a positive thing; feminism is a beautiful thing." #nycsc #ows
21:58 pm
PoI: "Maybe we can clarify some terminology," not everyone here knows what these words mean. #nycsc #ows
21:58 pm
PoI: "If facilitation wants to do this, or suggest someone else to do it, that would make this discussion better." #nycsc #ows
21:59 pm
Jesse will clarify the definitions. "A transman is a biological woman who is born w/ purely female genetalia and cells who undergoes…"
22:00 pm
"..a process to become socially a man, whether top or bottom. A transwoman is the reverse; undergoes transformation or hormones to become.."
22:00 pm
"..a woman. Genderqueer, these are people who identify outside of the words masculine or feminine, may respond to both or neither pronouns"
22:01 pm
Intersex: "Intersex people… people who are not born entirely male or entirely female. This includes a myriad of people…"
22:02 pm
Hermaphrodite? "An undocumented theory; it's someone who has both completely functional male and female reproductive organs."
22:02 pm
Ashley: "Intersex is the right word; hermaphrodite is an offensive term." #nycsc #ows
22:03 pm
New to me, "two spirit" -- "Someone who is able to inhabit both male or female gender essences." #nycsc #ows
22:03 pm
PoI: "You do not need surgery to ID as transgender person, as sex and gender are 2 different things." #nycsc #ows
22:03 pm
Contd: "A transman is someone who was born, assigned female at birth, don't conform to that." Vice-versa for transwomen; surgery not necc
22:04 pm
Lisa: "We took a little step out of our process to define terms." Someone: "There's a steadily-growing # of ppl who are nonconforming…"
22:04 pm
"…who feel they can join groups because they have no gender assigned and identify w/ no gender." Thinks this is source of disruption #nycsc
22:05 pm
Abe shouting for definitions of "queer ally" and "transgender ally". Jesse is back: "A queer ally or a transgender ally is someone…"
22:05 pm
"…who does not identify as queer or trans, but understands, accepts, supports the issues of being queer or trans, and puts themselves…"
22:05 pm
"…in position to become sensitive to these issues." #nycsc #ows
22:06 pm
Lisa notes that this may get messy, suggests we get concerns out before Ashley responds. May be more questions. #nycsc #ows
22:07 pm
PR asks WoN to clarify what makes WoN different from WoW. "Which definitions do you not accept that they do?" #nycsc #ows
22:07 pm
A: "What makes us different from WoW, they are more inclusive and do accept some men into their group." WoN is women- only. #nycsc #ows
22:07 pm
Lisa: "We're asking the same thing over and over again; people aren't being satisfied." Let's move fwd. #nycsc #ows
22:08 pm
Concern: "Respectfully, my concern is that these 2 grps are coming off to the rest of us as being very exclusionary."
22:08 pm
C: "What would be the value to the GA of establishing 2 different women's caucuses?" #nycsc #ows
22:08 pm
Town Planning. "We have a concern that multiple caucuses are representing the same marginalized groups." #nycsc #ows
22:09 pm
TP cont'd: "This is a wonderful thing that the marginalized grps are represented. But setting aside what that marginalization is…"
22:09 pm
TP cont'd: "Don't we fundamentally have a conflict here between two caucuses re: who serves as a spoke?" #nycsc #ows
22:09 pm
TP cont'd: "It's up to caucuses to hash out who sits w/ them with the sign." Seems to be an issue of who gets to spoke. #nycsc #ows
22:10 pm
@Rockeresq (Ed: these are issues of safety and justice. -@diceytroop)
22:10 pm
Next C. "I'm concerned about the culture of this room. If anytime someone says they find a need not met, are they going to be attacked.."
22:11 pm
C cont'd: "…in this manner? The human being that first spoke on topic of women's group. There was a need, they fill it." #nycsc #ows
22:11 pm
Sage continues: "Is anyone someone tries to fill a need, are they going to be pushed into", forget the need, remember the whole? #nycsc #ows
22:12 pm
Next, Lopey. "I don't want to be redundant re: redundancy, but what you said is that svrl of the ppl in one grp- I can't even keep…"
22:12 pm
Lopey cond't: "…the names straight. They're very similar. If many in your group are in this group, it doesn't make sense to me…"
22:12 pm
Lopey cont'd: "…where are the other people in your group? I'm confused." Nan shouts that she is. #nycsc #ows
22:13 pm
WoN getting offended that TP questioned redundancy. "There's a strong possibility a man would be a spoke of WoW, so there's a strong…"
22:14 pm
"…difference. This is very important, I'm very confused about what's going on right now." Asks us to look inside ourselves. #nycsc #ows
22:14 pm
Ashley: "Again, 1 is a safe space for women only; one is not. One allows only women to be spokes; one does not." #nycsc #ows
22:14 pm
Ashley: "We're a caucus, we're here; we care about this movement and have been working just as hard as you. Our voices should count." #nycsc
22:15 pm
Lisa: "Please only speak if there's a concern that's not been raised or spoken to." #nycsc #ows
22:15 pm
PoI: "What we're doing here is clarifying whether this grp met the criteria of a caucus." Notes tht clustering b/w caucuses not in SC model
22:16 pm
"We're determining whether they fit def of caucus." Someone: "I think by alienating them at this meeting we've proven that they do." #nycsc
22:16 pm
Safer spaces: "At safer spaces, our concern is not about redundancy. That's been beaten like a dead horse." #nycsc #ows
22:16 pm
SS: "Concern is you keep making distinction b/w safe space and inclusive one." Worried transfolks feeling unsafe. #nycsc #ows
22:17 pm
SS: "Wonder how you'd make a distinction if someone who presented as masculine or IDd as woman came." #nycsc #ows
22:17 pm
SS cont'd: "Would you reject someone who didn't identify as 'she'? These are my concerns." #nycsc #ows
22:18 pm
Next Q: "Do you think that people are giving you a hard time because you're black and strong and speaking your mind?" #nycsc #ows
22:18 pm
Lisa: "That was actually not a concern at all." Nan not having it. #nycsc #ows
22:19 pm
C: "First, concerned that Queering OWS hasn't spoken." (They're on stack.) "My C: I just don't know what y'all do." #nycsc #ows
22:20 pm
C: "If you talked about what you /did/ then I could help you out." #nycsc #ows
22:21 pm
C: "There's no way to enforce, since people volunteer info about gender." How can difference even be made b/w WoW and WoN? #nycsc #ows
22:21 pm
C: "I feel that by having 1 particular grp go first, we're blaming WoN for redundancy; would have been other way around if WoW was first."
22:22 pm
Queering OWS: "We include *everybody* specifically b/c we don't want to discriminate or disinclude anyone." #nycsc #ows
22:22 pm
QOWS: "But we support the need for a safe space. WoW is a safe space for women, even though it includes men." #nycsc #ows
22:23 pm
QOWS: "When a group excludes someone to keep a space safe," not sure it should be permitted, b/c is exclusionary. #nycsc #ows
22:23 pm
Q: "What's the def of a group? 1 person or more than 1" A: "A group is more than one person." Groans. PoI: "Caucus needs 5+". #nycsc #ows
22:24 pm
Lisa gives Ashley one more response to address what do you do, how do you enforce restrictions? #nycsc #ows
22:24 pm
Ashley: "What we do is plan ways for other WGs to be more sensitive to needs of women." Also planning direct action to United Nations.#nycsc
22:25 pm
Ashley: "Also working to make sure it's a safe space; I know the safer spaces grp doesn't like that," don't want to impinged as men. #nycsc
22:25 pm
Ashley: "If someone identifies as a woman, we're not going to have a vote. We'll respect that." If they ID as men, acknowledge as men.#nycga
22:26 pm
Ashley: "So I don't appreciate the words, the isms being vilified right now." #nycsc #ows